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第 41 楼 / Steve
- 时间: 2006-8-13 14:28I am not sure I used the word "immigration" anywhere but it does not matter. Migration, immigration whatever, the flow of Han people into Xinjiang started in the late 19th century but only really achieved a large scale after 1949. It has only been possible because of the military strength of the central government. It has been imposed on the original inhabitants who would otherwise certainly have resisted the influx more strongly.
They are all there now and presumably all have to get along. It just strikes me as strange that the newcomers do not bother to learn Uighur. It is a bit like the Anglos in Quebec who did not used to learn French. Now they have to. But diffrerent languages and people living together always causes friction and rivalry.
The fact that the Han are a mixture of many ethnic origins is not relevant. A person who only speaks Chinese and self-identifies as a Han is a Han, regardless of his DNA. That is what is meant by Han today, someone who partakes of the culture. This should not be the same as a 中国人。A Uighur is a 中国人. But it gets confusing. Most people use 中国话 and 中国人 to refer to the Chinese language and Han people. Uighur is a language of China but not Chinese.
It is my understanding that universities in Xinjiang are in Chinese only. Is that true? Can you work in a large company or goernment office in Xinjiang and use Uighur? I ask that because you said 新疆根本没有汉化 -
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- 时间: 2006-8-13 14:43Thanks to Wanghu for getting us back onto the subject.
Judaism is primarily a religion. Throughout much of history people have often identified with their religion more than or as much as with their language or ethnic origin. Jews were expelled from their homeland and therefore their religion has been their homeland so to speak. They were persecuted much more in Christian countries than in Moslem countries throughout most of their history. Medieval Islam was tolerant during a peiod that coincided with their greatest achievements.
After the Enlightenment in Europe, Jews were gradually assimilated into Western European society. Jews felt themselves to be German, Austrian, French etc. and were culturally assimilated into their host country. Many writers, musicians, politicians and others who are representative of German or French culture were Jews. Freud, Kafka, Heine, Mendelsohn, as were Prime Ministers of France, Ministers of Germany etc.
Aggressive nationalism developed in the mid to late 19th century in Europe. One result was Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and similar right wing groups, another result was Zionism, both as a reaction to anti-semitism and as part of the same nationalism trend.
Many Jews today are assimilated into the host country's culture while keeping their religion. Others see themselves as a separate group, promote multiculturalism and aggressively support Israel with money etc. Around 50% of Jews marry outside their own religion. Jews are a prominent part of North American culture and are culturally not separate despite having a different religion, with exception of the Orthodox whom you see in their black outfits.
I objected to the tone of the original question because it was just a blanket condemnation of Judaism without trying to explain it.
I have serious concerns about Islam, becuase of the strength of an aggressive expansionist religious nationalism in today's Islam, in some ways similar to the nationalisms of Europe in the late 19th century and similar to the crusading zeal of Medieval Christianity. I think we need to be vigillant, as we should have been towards the rise of Nazism. Excessive nationalism of whatever kind and source is always a threat to the peace of the world. -
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- 时间: 2006-8-13 15:15Thanks WANGHU, I did'nt make the
question myself but to quote a post from other forum. I really have no answer till I have received a vicious peronal attack that it appears, ironically, to imply some answer hint. But still I do hope to get fuller answer.
化外的评论
August 11th, 2006 at 2:30 am
说个故事：
一次在布鲁克林迷路了，向路边走过的一个正教犹太人问路 — 帽子、衣服、胡子，牵着五六岁的小男孩。小孩儿盯着我看，等我问完了，他问：你为什么不是犹太人呢？我大笑：哈哈！对不起，我的错！
他爸赶紧把他扯开了。
我一时不知作何感想。这小孩估计刚从教堂出来，听说不是犹太人最后都不能进天堂，特可怜我。
我的犹太人朋友里没一个信犹太教的。犹太教和基督教清真教不同，那是一个赤裸裸种族歧视的宗教。
WANGHU _BBCODE_WROTE:这个讨论，主贴的问题问得有些冲，但其后的讨论已经远远的偏离了主题：犹太教到底是什么?在论坛上类似的问题，针对不同的对象也提出过，但没有引起Steve的不满：不想有种族偏见都不行。应该禁止信奉伊斯兰教的人移民。
此后乔布斯兄问了个问题：为什么中东问题总是能得到全球新闻媒体的瞩目？
但Steve在回帖里并没有给出直接的回答，而是指责支持真主党和哈马斯的可以和支持斯，列，毛的左派或者支持希特勒（这次可以提了
）或墨索里尼的相提并论。这就不知道从何谈起了。
现在搬出来的道理，是不是一样可以对犹太人适用？不要复国，不要恢复过去的荣光？
其实我也是不太明白：
怎样的人算是犹太人？靠血统还是靠信仰？犹太人在离开耶路撒冷这么多年，是不是努力要融入当地的社会和文化中？是不是拒绝了单一文化？ -
- 时间: 2006-8-13 16:31
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- 时间: 2006-8-13 16:49
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- 时间: 2006-8-13 18:44 Steve _BBCODE_WROTE:
This should not be the same as a 中国人。A Uighur is a 中国人. But it gets confusing. Most people use 中国话 and 中国人 to refer to the Chinese language and Han people. Uighur is a language of China but not Chinese.
It is my understanding that universities in Xinjiang are in Chinese only. Is that true? Can you work in a large company or goernment office in Xinjiang and use Uighur? I ask that because you said 新疆根本没有汉化
没有什莫奇怪，你现在在加拿大经常见到的中国人很少是维吾尔族人，或者其他民族的人。新疆大学有两种语言。像魁北克一样，你如果和维吾尔族人讲汉语，他们可能不大搭理你。大学里的维吾尔族人有些很激进，甚至干涉维吾尔姑娘和其他民族的接触。但是中国国境内的维吾尔族人就是中国人，你可能不理解，想想魁北克人对你会有所帮助。至于他们信奉的伊斯兰教，那就每个人会有不同的看法。如果你想了解的多一些，最好去新疆一次，好过出现你的1949年新疆才被中国纳入的笑料。 -
- 时间: 2006-8-13 21:54Steve, I agree with some of things you said. Not sure about your criticism on Islam though. I used to hang out with a few Muslims, and I sure didn't feel that they were trying to subjugate me, a non-believer in any way. Just to be fair, I wonder if we could get some Muslims to share their view of Islam and perhaps Judaism here on this board.
I am not saying your opinion on the MidEast crisis is biased, but do you think your ethnic background is affecting your judgement in any way? -
- 时间: 2006-8-13 22:39You must mean ethnical background? Then really he does have Jewish background? I though it was a joke. If so he should certainly excuse himself from our discussion unless we listen a party of Islam believer as well.
bcjobs _BBCODE_WROTE:
(snip ...)
I am not saying your opinion on the MidEast crisis is biased, but do you think your ethic background is affecting your judgement in any way? -
- 时间: 2006-8-14 00:05 好奇 _BBCODE_WROTE:
You must mean ethnical background? Then really he does have Jewish background? I though it was a joke. If so he should certainly excuse himself from our discussion unless we listen a party of Islam believer as well.
此君乃犹太人, 娶了个台湾妻子, 曾游历过亚洲某些国和地区, 语言上有一定造诣, 中文当然深得夫人的帮助. 曾任菲沙河某研究机构, 为政府的有关移民政策做调查报告. 以前经常出现在中文电台的时事评论节目.
其长久以来的言行, 反华言论居多, 对华族的蔑视居多, 也许这和他有很多机会近距离观察中国人的很多缺点有关. 至于为何他只看缺点, 不得而知. 所以你看到他关于中国如何入侵西藏新疆, 汉族如何毁灭其他文化的言论, 完全不必惊讶. 而他跑到一个华人论坛上宣称自己代表加拿大主流意见, 对人头税问题指手画脚, 这里各位仍对其相敬如宾到是让我意外.
作为犹太血统的人为自己种族辩护, 其情可以理解, 然而又好标榜自己客观没有BIAS, 是为可笑.
而做为非华族, 试图要华人接受华人当初所受侮辱是特定时期的合理待遇, 无须纠正, 更鼓噪华人纠缠过去是"我很可怜"的表现, 是为无礼.
更在此以其狭窄偏差的中国历史认识试图污蔑丑化中国历史, 是为可恶. -
- 时间: 2006-8-14 00:54
犹太教 到底是什么?
